Climate Conversations S3E13: Season 3 Wrap-up: What Have We Learned About Learning To Change?

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:00:00] Welcome to the final episode of season three. My co-conspirators, Curt Newton.

Curt Newton: [00:00:12] Hello.

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:00:13] And Dave Damm-Luhr.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:00:15] Hi everybody.

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:00:16] And this is Rajesh Kasturirangan in the fantastic studios of MIT.

Curt Newton: [00:00:21] So we've taken on some really interesting stuff this season, taking different looks at what learning actually looks like.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:00:29] So what did you guys mean by learning to change, when we started all this enterprise?

Curt Newton: [00:00:35] We've got to do things differently than we have been. We've got to do it quicker. We got to do it bigger. We got to do it smarter. And I would like to think that learning's got something to do with that.

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:00:48] You've got to learn how to bring individuals and communities and governments and businesses and divine retribution and everything else into one framework. I don't know how to do it, but I want to learn.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:01:05] Yeah, for me, the interesting question is who's the 'we' here? Is it the three of us in a room with our sound engineer Dave Lachanski, or is it the whole world, or is it something in between? What does that shift look like? What does transformation mean for me or for we? I don't know the difference.

Curt Newton: [00:01:26] For me, it starts with me, in the sense of who can I speak for. I think back to some of the things that really got us started on this theme of change starts from within. I'm left at the end of the season here wondering how have I changed? How have I observed you guys changing through it?

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:01:51] So what's up for you?

Curt Newton: [00:01:53] Well, one of the things that's up for me is feeling increasingly urgent that, oh my my god, we don't have time for all of this, all of this sort of thoughtful learning. There's too much to do. There's too much to do.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:02:05] Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Curt Newton: [00:02:08] I'm left wondering, if that's my mindset, how do I create the space to actually take in new stuff?

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:02:16] Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Curt Newton: [00:02:17] Help me Dave. Help me Rajesh.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:02:20] Right, so I'm really struck by the Mother's Out Front model, which is learning in community, helping each other to learn. These are folks, often working parents that have lots of demands on their lives, and don't have a whole lot of time. Yet, they're somehow able to pull off that learning in community so that no one individual has to bear the whole burden. That seems like a really compelling model to me.

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:02:46] So the big thing for me, which is strange given my anarchist impulses, is how the possibility of large scale state action is now not too far. We're talking about the Green New Deal-

Curt Newton: [00:03:00] Not too far. You mean like we could be looking at it actually taking shape?

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:03:04] I hope we do.

Curt Newton: [00:03:06] We better be hoping we do.

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:03:08] Yeah, but I feel like come 2020 or, maybe even earlier, federal legislation that is transformative might be on the board. That would be kind of ... it would be completely different from anything we've seen in the climate movement before.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:03:26] Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Curt Newton: [00:03:27] The question that I'm left with is how do you scale? How do you go from a one high school or one club in a high school, or one local advocacy group Mothers Out Front, whatever it might be, or one university like MIT, teaching one freshman seminar. How do you scale those things up?

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:03:48] It looks like you got an idea on that. Go for it.

Curt Newton: [00:03:50] Tell your story through a podcast.

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:03:53] Okay. All right.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:03:56] That gets the word out to more people.

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:03:59] Fireside chats from the president. But not the current one.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:04:04] Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:04:06] But frankly, you know, I've been reading about, not just about the New Deal, but something that you could say that I'm not terribly proud about and we shouldn't be, but the Manhattan Project, and how the nuclear bomb was built. You know, 130000 people worked on that, which in the United States of 1942 or 43 is one in every thousand Americans.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:04:32] Oh right. In Las Alamos, New Mexico-

Curt Newton: [00:04:34] How many of them knew what they were doing?

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:04:35] I don't know.

Curt Newton: [00:04:36] My sense is it was super, super secret, right?

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:04:38] And it used one percent of the electricity ... just that one project, consumed one percent of the United States electricity.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:04:48] That's like bit coin.

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:04:49] Right? So, it's happened. I wouldn't say that it's necessarily the model to emulate, given what it led to, but I do think that you can start from scratch and commandeer very large amounts of resources to achieve a common goal pretty quickly.

Curt Newton: [00:05:09] So what's the connection to learning there?

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:05:11] They had to learn how to build the industrial infrastructure-

Curt Newton: [00:05:15] Oh, for the nuclear bomb?

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:05:16] Yes. They didn't have it. Of course, they built upon the New Deal, so Oakridge National Laboratory is in Tennessee and all the electricity came from the Tennessee Valley Authority, which was built by the New Deal.

Curt Newton: [00:05:32] Yeah.

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:05:32] So, there's this cascading series of interventions. You need a New Deal to build institutions, to then build the next stage. That's kind of collective learning that I think is very important.

Curt Newton: [00:05:44] There's a real interesting thread of history and perspective that you get from understanding history, in that as well. That's a thing we didn't touch on specifically, explicitly in this season, but we'd better hope that there are a lot of lessons like that from history that can inform what we're gonna be doing both on the positive side and things to avoid on the negative side.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:06:06] Some examples come to mind Curt?

Curt Newton: [00:06:08] Well an example of a thing to avoid, you know from recent history, you know there's this expose about palm oil and the deforestation that came along with that as a unintended consequence-

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:06:22] Right.

Curt Newton: [00:06:22] From a bunch of not fully thought out biofuels mandates, you know, 10, 15 years prior.

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:06:30] George Bush.

Curt Newton: [00:06:31] And the things that were set in motion through that have turned out to have really devastating consequences for the climate and I feel like there's a bunch of cautionary tales that we might want to learn from a deeper study of history. That's only one of the most recent, but we can go way, way-

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:06:49] That's actually why I love Quinton's Safe to Fail idea, because if somebody had done a Safe to Fail experiment with palm oil they would have figured out that cutting down rainforest in Borneo is not a great way to address renewable biofuels.

Curt Newton: [00:07:06] In other words, let's do a few test plots of a palm oil plantation and see what it looks like.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:07:12] Right.

Curt Newton: [00:07:12] That's tough to set up.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:07:14] That's interesting, Rajesh that you mention about Safe to Fail, because when I think about our three sets of guests, Tara Scope at MIT, Mothers Out Front, and the Boston Latin School, they were all experimenting. They were trying things out. Every year a little different. Let's try this. Let's try that. And we could go back and recount lots of examples from all three of those sets of folks where they were learning on the job. They were learning by doing, trying it out. Oop, that didn't work. Oop, let's try something else. Right?

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:07:45] And each one of them had different goals, and yet they were able to roll with the punches, so to speak.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:07:54] Mm-hmm (affirmative). As a community. A learning community.

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:07:58] And I think that that is very interesting because communities that are self-consciously learning communities I think are different from communities that just happen to learn.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:08:08] In what ways do you think?

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:08:10] Because I feel like that message of we need to learn together is probably part of the DNA of the organization itself.

Curt Newton: [00:08:19] Got an example of a learning community that you thought really worked well that influenced you?

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:08:24] So this is a kooky community, but it was actually one of the most influential in my life. I was part of a group called Kira. Kira in Japanese means star. Kira was this community which was science and other ways of learning, so the idea was that you combine scientific inquiry with philosophical, artistic and spiritual ways of knowing and so they organized these five summer schools in Amherst at Amherst College. And people would come from all across the world and spend two weeks with each other and every day they would create a joint project ... everybody was part of a team that created a joint project. People would be ... you would have writers and mathematicians and-

Curt Newton: [00:09:16] It's like an artist colony, but broader-

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:09:18] Yeah.

Curt Newton: [00:09:18] Broader domains.

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:09:19] And it was amazing the kind of things you would think of after just being at it together for a week. Right? Like this magic would happen. It would be pretty intense before that and nerves and tempers and everything, but I really like the idea of a very diverse group of people coming together with a blue sky mandate.

Curt Newton: [00:09:45] So diverse in the sense of representing different disciplines?

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:09:49] And cultures.

Curt Newton: [00:09:49] Culture, languages, everything.

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:09:52] Everything. It was a microcosm of ... an elite microcosm, because if you can come fly down to Amherst college, you're not a very poor peasant somewhere, but never the less, a very diverse group of people.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:10:09] We're not talking about a one day hack-a-thon either?

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:10:12] No.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:10:12] This a thing where it takes some time for people to get to know one another, and there's space of new big ideas to take shape collaboratively.

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:10:22] And we had great mentorship. There's was some very distinguished people who were mentors.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:10:29] Ah, those mentors.

Curt Newton: [00:10:30] We saw that exact same thing that you're describing, we saw that in all three cases. Tara Scope, Mothers Out Front and Boston Latin. There were developmental stages that they went through getting to know each other, who's in the room, who knows what, what are your skills, what can we learn from each other. Then, they took off, all of them, at different stages of their development as a learning community.

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:10:55] And you never know ... I don't think you can bottle that magic. Each group had its own chemistry-

Curt Newton: [00:11:03] Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:11:04] But when it clicks, everybody knows.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:11:07] And it's a process that you have to go through. Like you were saying, you can't just walk into a room and all of a sudden it happens, but it's a process that facilitators like Cate Arnold, who is the faculty member at Boston Latin, who helped start that. Vanessa Rule in Mothers Out Front. Others are facilitators, they're sort of helpers in getting the group to gel and become a community of learners. It takes time.

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:11:33] That's the other thing that learning tell us, right? Patience.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:11:38] I think that we thought that we were urgent before. Oh man. You know? Certainly conversations I've been having with people who have been climate engaged, that's a really common feeling.

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:11:52] Right.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:11:52] The clarion call of the IPCC 1.5 special report, we gotta be 50% reduction by 2030, one of my biggest questions lingering at this point is what's a learning model look like that can take on that scale of a challenge or speed.

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:12:12] We don't know. I mean, we're gonna have to figure it out.

Curt Newton: [00:12:13] Right.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:12:14] Right.

Curt Newton: [00:12:14] We've gonna have to figure it out. We're gonna have to run some really well thought out rapid experiments over the next couple years.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:12:22] Right, but we saw those sorts of things unfolding, if you think back to the conversation we had with Susan Tang, who is the student leader at Boston Latin, she was observing, hey, in the beginning we were talking about recycling and things at the household level and now we're talking about the whole school level, the whole school system level and we're bringing in younger people, or teaching and training the next generation within the school, and we're focused on different kinds of issues. It's not just the household and can you recycle the plastic, which is still good, but it's much larger scale. How can we change the system? Rebecca Park was talking about changing the standards for teaching, changing the testing standards. That's where you make a systems level, an institutional kind of change. And you can use those object. I mean, I'm speaking to your concern Curt about we don't have time. So, maybe it's a matter of changing the object of change from individuals and households and families, to institutions have to learn, have to get more nimble, have to get more responsive. Don't you think?

Curt Newton: [00:13:28] Yeah, I feel like maybe one of the most important forms of learning right now might be, learning how to identify when something's not working and flipping the script on it. There's so much momentum built up behind the forces that have led us to this climate crisis.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:13:48] Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Curt Newton: [00:13:49] You know, I think one of the most fundamental learnings needs to be, when do we call it for what it is and say this flow needs to be interrupted?

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:13:58] Right.

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:13:59] But the flip side being, I don't think as a species we have much experience with changing everything.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:14:08] At the species level?

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:14:09] Yeah. Right? Because it's not just changing your school, but it's going to involve changing your school. It's not just changing your household, but it's going to involve ... like, everything in every way has to change and so if we are successful, I bet if we've recorded how we live today and we do successfully negotiate some of those goals that ... I think the IPCC report is actually pretty conservative, we need to be much more aggressive in our targets than what it says, but let's say we do it. We will be living a life ten years from now that's quite different from what it is today. That's pretty unbelievable.

Curt Newton: [00:14:55] How we get our energy and how we use-

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:14:58] Yeah, everything.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:14:58] Transportation.

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:14:59] How we move. Exactly.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:15:01] Consume food.

Curt Newton: [00:15:02] We'll be living quite differently by choice, or increasing it will be forced upon us, not of control.

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:15:10] I kind of feel like it's going to happen, whether it happens through our agency or our lack of it. I don't know.

Curt Newton: [00:15:20] Right. So, for me this whole series, the season, about learning to change, really had two parts to it, two definitions. One of them is, how do I change? How do I transform myself? But it's also, how do we learn in order to transform systems? How do we get larger institutions, how do we get even a species level to reflect change that's needed, that's absolutely essential if we want to survive on the planet?

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:15:47] So, when it comes to that, is there something that you guys feel that the season did not cover in our learning to change trajectory or something that you would like to see?

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:15:57] I have, along the spirit of urgency and so forth, this big open question about learning being a fairly rational process, right? And that change, I'm thinking that change of the sort that we need, should be grounded both in a learning spirit, but also a decisiveness and being grounded in some values-

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:16:29] Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:16:29] Which are, I think, accessed through a different path than what we would conventionally think of as learning.

Curt Newton: [00:16:37] So all parts of our brain-

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:16:38] Yeah.

Curt Newton: [00:16:39] Not just the rational, fore-brain.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:16:41] Right.

Curt Newton: [00:16:42] Left-brain kind of thing.

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:16:46] Our season opener with Renee kind of went over some of these issues.

Curt Newton: [00:16:50] Oh, that's right. That's right. Yeah.

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:16:52] But I think that again, how do you institutionalize that? Because psychology in particular is seen as such an individual thing, and emotions are seen as very individual thing, but we want collective emotions and collective value-

Curt Newton: [00:17:08] Shifts. Even Renee, as an environmental psychologist, was very quick to point out that it's less about what's going on completely within ourselves, and more about how in our relationships with people, the conversations we have get to be shifted. We're back into that community frame again.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:17:29] Right.

Curt Newton: [00:17:30] All of this stuff has gotta flow into our relationships with other people.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:17:34] So, we're as humans, as a species, we're social animals, right? So, learning in community ought to be the most natural thing, versus competitive, like I'm better than you are, or I've got more right answers than you do. It's how can we together be smart? Isn't that the key?

Curt Newton: [00:17:51] It's also clear at this point that learning in community needs to be learning in communities, plural, and that we need to be expanding our contact outside of what our default home turf might be in a community sense. The intersectionality of these issues requires that we work together, understand each other, and get connected in a way that I don't think we've every really had to confront before.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:18:19] Well that's where I think the Mothers Out Front model is so beautiful, because Vanessa, if you remember, Vanessa Rule was the director of expansion as well as learning. We said, gee what's going there? She said, well we learn in communities. Whatever we've learned one place, we try to pour it over to another, or make it available to the people who are organizing, say Stacy out in South Bay in San Jose was standing on the shoulders of folks in other states that had maybe a step or two ahead of them.

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:18:51] So, let me come back to the question that I posed a couple minutes ago. What's missing?

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:18:58] For me, a number of the guests touched on the whole systems thinking approach to things, not just seeing households or schools or communities in isolation, but as part of a larger web of systems, whether it's corporations, government, all the different players in the human system, and we touched on that, but I was missing a more through going analysis of what that system looks like. Some of our guests talked about understanding power or walking in the hallways of power and what do you do there once you're there. So, I think we could've taken those kinds of themes a step or two further.

Curt Newton: [00:19:37] For me a couple of big things that are missing from this conversation have been the voice of business, which is unquestionable just has so much power out in the world. It would be great to have that be more part of the equation, because for better or for worse, that's where a lot of the results and the impact are going to come from.

 The other thing for me is on the other side of that equation, the voices of communities that have been marginalized from this stuff in the past. I have to assume would have a very different, hopefully complimentary, but a different set of expectations and rules to live by and goals and objectives and I know I personally really look forward to that being one of the most powerful sources of learning for my future.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:20:31] Mm-hmm (affirmative). I want to also build on what you were saying before about values Curt, because I think it might have been, if we had had the time to talk with people from faith communities, because those are communities that typically speak from their heart, from their values, and I think there's a lot of learning to change that comes through those values discussions.

Curt Newton: [00:20:52] Yeah. Where do you hear people talk more often about transformation than in that sort of sphere?

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:20:58] Right, yeah.

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:21:00] So, I have a couple of places ... the one is definitely ... we recorded all of these interviews before IPCC report came out. So, October 8 is when that report was released-

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:21:13] 2018.

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:21:17] 2018. Since then, I think it's clear ... Curt you already pointed out that if we thought things were bad and we needed to be urgent, well now we have to be much more so, and so I think everybody's grappling with how do you learn to change at 10x the speed that you were trying to, which you already thought was quite fast? Right? And what I'm also noticing is how large international intuitions, the IPCC and others, are also struggling with this because suddenly it's clear that the very foundations of current power are going to be challenged. The world will not be the same.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:22:05] You're talking about the sort of uprisings and-

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:22:07] Everything.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:22:08] Rightward shift and so forth.

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:22:09] Yeah, and so-

Curt Newton: [00:22:10] Or mass migrations. That sort of thing.

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:22:12] So, I think that we are suddenly seeing directly in front of our eyes some of the bad news that people were just speculating upon earlier and we need to figure out how to address those as well.

Curt Newton: [00:22:30] And along with that then, I'll say, we need to learn how to life each other up.

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:22:33] Yeah.

Curt Newton: [00:22:33] You feelin down? We need to learn how to lift each other up and share those sources of courage and hope. As we are recording today, Sunrise Movement is leading an action of 1000 plus people in Washington DC making a firm lobbying push for Green New Deal and for stronger action. I get such an uplift from the growth of that movement I have to say.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:23:00] Mm-hmm (affirmative). These are young people, teenagers-

Curt Newton: [00:23:02] And young adults. High school, college, and through their 20s. I'm with you in spirit.

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:23:12] So guys, as we start looking towards the future, yes it's true that momentous changes are about to happen, but how do you feel like you want to contribute to this shift?

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:23:26] For me personally, it's really important to bring in a systems perspective whenever possible. So, when I was seeing tear gas in the streets of Paris and thought that, oh, our friend Curt is in Paris, I wonder how he's doing there? I realized, this is a learning moment for us as global citizens, as people that have instant access to information about what's happening all across the globe, and we don't have the luxury of time to sit and wait and hope that somebody will somehow have a miracle cure, an engineering solution or whatever that will make the issue go away, but that this is affecting whether governments stand or fall, where we can travel, where we feel comfortable, our lifestyle to which we have become accustomed and gotten, to speak for myself, a little lazy in terms of my choices. It's a collective wake-up call that I think we need to all be thinking in terms of systems instead of just our own little neighborhood and street.

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:24:32] I think a big thing that I'm looking forward to and want to understand is, as climate become central to politics, how it gets connected to other issues. So, when we start talking about transforming how people earn a living and what they make and how they make it, that's a very big shift and it's going to take entirely new fields of knowledge and new ways of communicating. How will we train workers at every level? It's like we are trying to create a new society from scratch in a decade. That is awesome in every sense of the term.

Curt Newton: [00:25:22] And the pieces of that new society are already present, already with us right now. People are pushing those boundaries all over the place; we just have to put it together in ways we've never put it together before.

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:25:33] Absolutely.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:25:34] I've been thinking a lot about what to pay attention to. There is so much stuff coming at us from so many different directions. Increasingly it feels like I have to choose where I put my attention, where I put my energy. And, it's absolutely at play when I think about what things do I want to learn, what experiences do I want to have to inform how I go ahead.

 I've been thinking about the experience we had in New England in Eastern Massachusetts this fall with the natural gas explosions, where thousands of households in Lawrence, North Andover and Andover had their natural gas service go haywire, blow-up. Hundreds of people had their houses destroyed, thousands of people were displaced, and it's a terrible situation and it's also a learning opportunity to really engage in that kind of thing. You know, people were literally without any heat, hot water, any capacity to cook food, for months. And there's still a few that are in that state. How do we, as a broader community, take that sort of event and try to learn from it?

 Clearly, it's hardly the last disaster that's going to face us that's attached to our current energy systems and the changes of climate. How do we respond? How do we reach out to those neighbors and work with them to build back better? I spent a really intense Saturday up in Lawrence through the great organizing work of Mothers Out Front and a few other folks distributing induction hot plates to people that could run off of electricity. People were so, so appreciative. Many of them, you know, also just super appreciative to just talk with somebody about what their experience was. Every single one of those households has had a really intense thing go on, and I feel like that presents us with the sort of rich, in the real world, learning experience that we all ought to be grabbing for.

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:27:44] So guys, now ... well, you know all stories come to an end sooner or later and we are about to end this season. Any parting thoughts? Anything that you feel that our listeners would like to hear? Some ways in which you've changed over the season, either because of pursuing these topics, or elsewhere? Something that made you learn and change?

Curt Newton: [00:28:14] Yeah, I would love to hear from people how any of the examples that we've talked about with any of our guests have connected to something in their lives, or have inspired you to take on something new. I think it's through sharing those stores that we can continue to learn from each other.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:28:30] What I was really impressed with in thinking back over season three is the diversity of disciplines, the diversity of perspectives that was represented in the three groups that we've spotlighted, and that, what I learned is that everybody has a contribution to make. With this kind of existential species level threat that we're faced with now, as you've all pointed out with the most recent reports that we've read, it's not okay to hope that somebody else will take care of it. Everybody has a role to play, whatever your perspective or career or position, everybody's got a role to play. We need to find ways to welcome everybody into the largest tent we could imagine so we can join forces together and be smart together.

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:29:18] Be smart together. That's a pretty good slogan I'll say to end the season. Thank you everybody for listening. Thank you Dave and thank you Curt and thank you me.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:29:29] Yeah.

Curt Newton: [00:29:29] Thank you guys.

Rajesh Kasturirangen: [00:29:31] Thank you for listening.

Curt Newton: [00:29:32] Bye bye.

Dave Damm-Luhr: [00:29:33] Bye.

Curt Newton: [00:29:38] The Climate Conversations Podcast is engineered and edited by Dave Lishansky. Project and media support is by my MIT open learning colleagues Laura Howells and Mikaela Joyce. Please subscribe and rate us wherever you find your podcasts. Join the community on climate.mit.edu and be in touch at Twitter: climatex_MIT and Facebook: group name, MIT Climate. For my co-hosts Rajesh Kasturirangan, and Dave Damm-Luhr, I'm Curt Newton. Thanks so much for listening.